Open Geodata in Europe - Inspire directive

[John Halleck]

On Thu, 11 May 2006, John Halleck wrote:

  Argh... I should learn to proof read when I'm angry.
  Numerious corrections below.
  Some additions.

> On Thu, 11 May 2006, Andy Waddington wrote:
> 
> > On Thursday 2006-05-11 00:49, Wookey wrote:
> > 
> > > If you think mapping data collected by public bodies should be available to
> > > the public for free
> > 
> > What these public bodies _collect_ are facts. Not original artistic or
> > literary creations. There can be no copyright in those data. No conceivable
> > argument about that.
> 
>   See below.
> 
> > What these agencies create, which _is_ intellectual property, are
> > representations of those data for public consumption - maps, charts,
> > tidal predictions, weather forecasts, river level/flooding forecasts
> > etc. But they do use public money to create that IP.
> 
>   But the original "facts" that you state are not copyrightable
>   are also not released.  (At least the Irish Ordanance survey isn't
>   willing to release them without serious money and vaguely unbelievable
>   licencing.)
> 
>   The formal argument given seems to be that any representation of the
>   facts is an Intelectual property. (Just as phone books can be a
>   copyrightable item in some juristictions.)
> 
> > The UK government is particularly fascist about this IP, doing the sort
> > of accounting that looks at cash flows through bodies like the UKHO, the
> > OS, the Met. Office and so on, and not taking account of the savings to
> > other bodies that would result from free availability of the information.
> > Tidal predictions, for example, are regarded as a matter of public safety
> > by many countries, and the savings to search and rescue organisations
> > from making this info freely available exceed the losses of revenue from
> > not selling the information as is done in the UK.
> 
>   I agree whole heartedly.
> 
>   Contrast the UK's attitute on this with the US's NGS.
> 
>   The free availiabilty of data has benefited local governments greatly.
>   (Several local governments have their municipal control grid tied
>   to local NGS monuments, with full data on them provided by NGS
>   for free.)
> 
>   The NGS OPUS program has benefited both state and local control
>   surveying, as well as individual surveyors.  [The OPUS program
>   post processes four hours of GPS data against the after the fact
>   accurate orbits, and local CORS stations, routinely giving sub
>   centimeter accuracies.] All for free.  Not only in the US, but
>   for countries around the world [Countries like Iraq, Peru,
>   Aruba, Mexico, etc...  But very notibly not the UK.]
> 
>   The US NGS's CORS program made data from Continuous Operating
>   Refrence Stations to availible to the public for free.
>   Nobody forsaw the side effects.  Since the data was free, lots
>   of folk took a look.   That data is now being used for studies
>   that the people that released it never imagined.
>   Examples as diverse as plate techtonics,ionospheric
>   studies, and yearly snow load investigations.
> 
>   None of those would have been known possible if people hadn't looked
>   at the data.
> 
>   None of the researchers would have likely even looked at the data
>   if they'd have to had paid for it, since it wasn't known that the
>   data would pan out for the task.
    So if you don't see how, for example, how ionospheric monitoring
    and GPS are related... then just think that the monitoring would
    never have been done had the data not been free.

>   Nothing like any of the new uses has come out of the UK.
>   [What does the UK do with all that data it gathers?]
>   They have all come out of the US NGS's free access.
>   And now that the uses are known, none of it is likely to
>   be followed up in the UK (except by government) because the
>   data is just too unreasonably expensive.
> 
> > It should be a simple matter of enlightened self-interest to make the
> > original data and a lot of the derived representations and predictions
> > available without charge.
> 
>   I think the U.S.'s NGS (National Geodetic Survey) is a wonderful
>   example of what happens with free access.  The societal rewards
>   have been amazing.

    And also the benefits to Government are big.   A side effect of
    NGS giving information for free is that private surveyors give
    them information for free.  I doubt the Cooperative CORS program
    could be done in the UK.    And the NGS is a smaller organization
    then the equivalent in many smaller countries.

> > > you need to sign the petition asking for this to happen, and ideally
> > > contact your MEP about it.
> 
>   :) I'd have an obvious problem doing that.
> 
>   The NGS site has pointers to a number of papers some explaining benefits
>   of the data...  possibly some of that can be fodder for the effort.
>    http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/
>  
> > Hmm, 703 signatures as of mine being added. 700,000 might be enough to get
> > some notice taken ...
> 
>   You have my heartfelt wishes for good luck on the project.
> 
>   Here many polititions respond to individual (I.E. not form letter)
>   letters much better than petitions.  It means that the people
>   care enough to take the time to inform them.
>   Your milage may vary.
>  
> > Andy
> 
> -- John Halleck
> 
> 
> 
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>